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Topic: WCG point disparity (Read 7680 times) Print
john galbraith

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After following some of the theatrics over at the WCG forum regarding the small amount of points awarded to Linux systems under BOINC, I came across something else.  Didactylos mentioned that XtremeSystems, among others, were cheating on points, so I took a look at that team and some of its top members.  I was stunned by what I found.  The top 8 guys there are scoring from 65 to 125 points per hour of run time.  My best pc, no slouch by any measure, gets only 36.  The BOINC bonus on Windows accounts for some of this I'm sure, but 125 PPH!  How are they doing this?
No wonder a lot of folks are p*ssed off over there.
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PiNkY

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*squeek*

I do kinda wonder how they do it myself...  Did a quick search for PPH at their forum, and came across this thread.


An interesting observation in the last post:

Quote
My farm averages about 2.5 Ghz a box and makes about 95 pph

My main rig is OC'ed to 2.5ghz (can push it a little more, but that's as far as I want to take it), though I don't think it makes that much...though I've never tested it, so I might be wrong. Thinking  It's a recent enough thread that anyone really curious might be able to post and ask how that's possible. Thinking
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john galbraith

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Thanks for the link, Pinky.

I read the thread and tried to understand it.  The machines posting these big numbers are all, apparently, dual core rigs which, I thought, means they can process two workunits at the same time, one per core.  This doesn't seem to be the case at XS.  They appear to be running ONE wu on both cores simultaneously.  Didn't think this was possible.  Also, it looks like at least some of these guys aren't even using BOINC.  They're getting huge returns from the ud agent.
They found a way to work the system.  Guess ya gotta give em credit for ingenuity.
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PiNkY

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*squeek*

The credit changes I saw posted about on WCG forums may not go too happily over there, then, if that's what's happening. Thinking
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jan649

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to quote someone else  Devil Donkey Kong
who cares about points
that is not why we are here
if these guys have found a way to process a wu faster / more per day /per machine - 
whats the problem as long as the results are valid
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phicks

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XS is not cheating.  They are a group of kick ass builders and OC'ers with state of the art rigs.  They do everything to the max.    I know a few of them and they are good guys.  Defending them & another person is one of the reasons I got called all those cool names by dog breath.  I don't regret it and would do it again.   Wink  I'm sure Movieman could explain all the tech stuff better to you guys if your interested.  If you want I'll send him a link and let him do it.   Thumbs Up
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VAIO GRX616

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'Nix n00b

XS is not cheating.  They are a group of kick ass builders and OC'ers with state of the art rigs.  They do everything to the max.

I looked at their sigs and, if those OC's are anything to go by, they are well past the max  Hoghappy
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phicks

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They are very scary.  When I go over to their site I won't even look in the tech threads.   rofl
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VAIO GRX616

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'Nix n00b

I don't mind the techy types, it's those nasty Linux types you have to watch  Hmm - especially the girls . . . .
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john galbraith

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The credit changes I saw posted about on WCG forums may not go too happily over there, then, if that's what's happening. Thinking

Saw the post over there about that.  Sure to raise a stink among the stat junkies. rofl

I didn't say they were cheating, just repeated what was claimed by others.  There must have been changes made in WCG's version of the UD software that permits these kinds of scores, perhaps unintentionally.  The original version, still used by UD, doesn't recognize any amount of RAM over 1.25 gHZ, for example, and was written years before dual core processors were hardly thought about, so WCG tried to accomodate this advance in technology.  Old hands at using UD, like me, find it hard to understand how such scores can be run up when they would have been impossible over at UD.

Jim, I've always been one of those who thought results were more important than points.  Only thing that will change my mind about that is if those points become something I can use to buy a new car. lol
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john galbraith

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I don't mind the techy types, it's those nasty Linux types you have to watch  Hmm - especially the girls . . . .

I'll bet Pinky doesn't even own a pocket protector. Grin
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phicks

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John as far as I know most of the folks at XS are using the stock boinc client.   I've seen several posts where that is what they ask everyone to use.   So I don't see why a majority would be using the UD version.  Really wouldn't make any sense for a  huge chunk of them to use the UD client.  I've used both and always got more points with boinc.   Thinking

I've seen that same claim they were cheating for the last few months.  Is usually the same folks repeating it loudly hoping someone will listen.   Sad
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jan649

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I don't mind the techy types, it's those nasty Linux types you have to watch  Hmm - especially the girls . . . .

 Angel Devil
I like watching girls - Thinking  even if they cant type  rofl
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john galbraith

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John as far as I know most of the folks at XS are using the stock boinc client.   I've seen several posts where that is what they ask everyone to use.   So I don't see why a majority would be using the UD version.  Really wouldn't make any sense for a  huge chunk of them to use the UD client.  I've used both and always got more points with boinc.   Thinking

Me too, when I experimented with it.  What led me to say what I did was from looking at some of their stat boxes.  I saw listings for WCG BOINC with so-so numbers and WCG non-BOINC with HUGE numbers. Huh?
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phicks

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John I'm sure Movieman can answer those questions.  I sent him the link so he could take a look.  He has been fighting this battle the last few months so like me he may like be sick of it.  Unless I see him post in this thread I won't post in it anymore. 

As far as XS goes unless someone comes up with hard proof of anything my mind is closed on the subject.  I don't think they are cheaters and I think those that keep yelling that have their own reason.    I really don't think they deserve all the crap they have to take.  The ones I know are good people.  So its always upsetting for me to see it again & again.   Wink

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john galbraith

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'nuf said. Thumbs Up
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Adywebb

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John - like Patty says, as far as I am aware they are nearly 100% Boinc users, so I find that apparent usage of the UD client very strange indeed  Huh?

I can also add that they have some absolutely awesome machines being used over there at unbelievable clock rates - so high point levels is no surprise at all to me.

I have been a member over there for some time, and they are a fantastic bunch who spend huge amounts of there own money on fighting for the cause - so I for one will not joining in any witch hunt.

Edit: I've just realised what you said about their stat boxes - remember that WCG Boinc is multiplied by 7 to convert to WCG points. The bigger WCG figure includes both boinc and UD points together. If you multiply the WCG Boinc figure by 7 you may find it comes somewhere near the overall WCG figure  Thumbs Up
Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 09:09:36 AM by Adywebb
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Scribe

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Scribbling to Order

...also do not forget that even tho you may be using ONLY Boinc, WCG also converts and gives you 'normal' UD type scores. Using Boinc you are on 2 sets of stats, using the UD type only you are on only 1 set of stats....
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john galbraith

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Thanks.  That does explain the numbers I saw. Thumbs Up
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Whl

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John, a few of those top guys have had early release C2DQ's for quite a few months now, as well as other interesting stuff. It's not cheating its just top hardware pushed to the max.  Thumbs Up
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john galbraith

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Getting a major case of hardware envy. Grin

Thanks for the post, Whl.  Again, I want to emphasize that I did not make an accusation, I was just investigating that claim made by others.  What you and others have told me has satisfied my curiosity. Cool
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Movieman
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Hello to all.
Phicks sent me a link to this thread so I came to answer any questions you might have in a spirit of friendship.
Keep in mind that what I run for XS is all dual xeon equipment and one dual Opty, not the highly overclocked gaming systems that most there run but more than happy to answer anything I can.
Movieman from XS
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Adywebb

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Where am I ???

Thanks for coming over Dave, and welcome to The Zone  Thumbs Up

...as it happens I think we've got it covered, but please hang around and join in the fun  Smiley
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phicks

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Ady I told Movieman you fixed things and I should have just asked you to in the beginning.  I just never thought.  Another random pm from me wouldn't have been anything unusual for you anyways.  Doh rofl

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Adywebb

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Yep - starting to get used to them now  lol
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vaio

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[email protected] cheerleader and Mod!!!

 Tongue

Nobody messages me........not even JJ  Cry Cry Cry rofl
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phicks

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Yep - starting to get used to them now  lol

Well you should have warned Movieman to not even reply to one of them.   rofl

Sorry Vaio  Hoghappy
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Adywebb

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Where am I ???

True - once you reply, you're a gonna  rofl
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phicks

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Well I was nice and gave him an exit.  Movieman will know for next time to just read it and delete it.  rofl

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Movieman
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I think the biggest problem we had all came from Rosetta and the mess that happenned there. Some things in life happen by circumstance and that was one of them. Without getting into the whole long story, the end was that we came out being branded as a bunch of cheats and if you knew me you'd know that I'd rather get nothing at all then have that title hung around my neck.
My machines average in the 40-45 point per hour range. These include a DX3600/2mb/800 Irwindale system, a DX2400/512/533 Prestonai rig,a couple of older DX2000/512/400 systems, one conroe 6600, and a MSI dual opty 266(ES of a 275) with one cpu on it.
All systems with at least 2 gig of ram.
All running on Boinc 5.4.11

Oh, Vaio, Hello..Seen your posts at WCG.
Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 05:21:02 PM by Movieman
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PiNkY

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*squeek*

welcome movieman Wave
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john galbraith

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Hi, Movieman, and welcome.

Maybe you can answer a BOINC question regarding RAM.  The UD software only recognizes a max of 1.25gHZ of RAM.  What about BOINC?  Does it give anything extra for the 2gHZ or so that you use?
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Movieman
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Hi, Movieman, and welcome.

Maybe you can answer a BOINC question regarding RAM.  The UD software only recognizes a max of 1.25gHZ of RAM.  What about BOINC?  Does it give anything extra for the 2gHZ or so that you use?
Thank you! We're just on the boinc client so I'm cluless as to the UD Agent. I can tell you that on my DX3600 I can use much more than 1.2 gig of ram with 4 WU running. I also run MJ12 to help that XS team as I have a 15mbit/2mbit line and MJ12 is all bandwidth but does use a little cpu power also(3-4%) Boinc is definately the way to go here without question.
My feeling is that if your running up to 4 WU at the same time 2 gig is fine.
We're building some clovertown systems now and with 8 cores I think 3 gig will be the minimum and 4 gig preferable.
That's 8 cores at 3333/8mb/1333..I'm thinking close to 20K a day each system on WCG.
Now as long as WCG doesn't see these as "outliers" with the new credit system they are discussing I think they will do well.
The killer is the ram cost on these. You need DDR2-667 FBDimms ans they run close to $200.00 each for a 1 gig stick.

oops, forgeting my manners: Hello Pinky!...And I did message Vaio so he can't say that anymore! lol
john galbraith: Is that a scene from Bullitt with Steve McQueen? Looks like his 66-67 Mustang on your avatar.
Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 10:09:49 PM by Movieman
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john galbraith

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john galbraith: Is that a scene from Bullitt with Steve McQueen? Looks like his 66-67 Mustang on your avatar.

It's a screen grab from the DVD and the Mustang was a `68.  Great looking car, wasn't it? Cool
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